Professor Alison Gocke
Good morning, Professor Gocke. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today! We're excited to have you join the faculty and expand the environmental programming here at the Law School. Let's start with where you're from and how you are liking Charlottesville so far.
I’ve moved around a bit: I was originally born in San Francisco, California, then moved to Hershey, Pennsylvania, and then finally landed in Columbia, Maryland, where I lived for around ten years. So, I usually say I’m from Maryland, and in that sense, coming to Charlottesville feels like coming home. I love this area. I still have family and friends in Maryland/D.C./Virginia, and I feel like even in the short amount of time I’ve been in Charlottesville, I’ve been able to see people a lot more.
You are new to the Law School this year, but you have been doing some pretty amazing things at Chicago and Yale’s law schools since getting your J.D. in 2018 from Stanford. Can you tell us a bit about your past work?
I knew when I went to law school that I wanted to work in the environmental law field in some way. I was an Environmental Studies minor in undergrad, and I went to Stanford specifically for their joint-degree program in law and environmental science. I also always loved academia; reading, researching, and writing make me really happy.
So I tried to choose things after law school that let me explore my substantive interests and also be in academic environments. Following a clerkship, I completed a joint fellowship between the Natural Resources Defense Council and Yale Law School. In the first year of the fellowship, I litigated cases with NRDC’s climate and clean energy team, which exposed me to some of the most important legal issues in the climate change and environmental law fields. I worked on cases related to the EPA’s regulation of greenhouse gas emissions from power plants and cars; the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission’s regulation of natural gas pipelines; and state and local climate tort cases. I learned so much from NRDC’s attorneys, some of whom have been doing this work for decades—they were there when the Clean Air Act was first being crafted.
Then, I spent the second year of my fellowship as the co-director of YLS’s environmental law clinic. We partnered with environmental organizations, like NRDC, on a wide variety of environmental issues. My time at Yale made clear to me that while I love the substance of environmental law, I really enjoy being in an academic environment. I love teaching and working with students, and being in a place where intellectual curiosity and scholarly inquiry is part of your daily life. I knew that if I could make a career in legal academia, it would be a good fit for me.
So, I went to the University of Chicago to be a Bigelow Fellow, which is a fellowship that is designed to help prepare people for the academic job market. There, I taught legal research and writing to 1Ls, and also got to devote time to my own scholarship.
As someone interested in energy work, I was stoked to see your resume added to the faculty page. You have a focus on environmental regulations—how did you find your specialty?
I’m so excited to get to know the energy community here at UVA! I got interested in environmental issues from a very young age—my mom was always passionate about the environment, and she passed that passion along to me. In undergrad, I minored in Environmental Studies, and I became very interested in climate change. As I mentioned, I went to law school with the idea that I would work in the environmental law field in some way. The more I studied these issues, the more I realized that if we want to tackle climate change, we need to take a closer look at how we regulate our energy systems.
In the United States, much of our energy law relies on an old system of public utility regulation that was not built to address major environmental issues, like climate change. I’m also really interested in history—my scholarship tends to be a mix of legal history and environmental/energy law work—and I was fascinated by this puzzle of an old legal regime running into a distinctly modern problem. So that’s how I got interested in energy law in particular: both because of its centrality to modern environmental issues, and as a particular set of legal doctrines that needs to be examined in a new light and with different interests at stake.
In addition to your J.D., you have a Master’s in Environmental and Natural Resources. How was your experience getting a dual degree? Do you recommend it?
I really loved my joint-degree program. As I said, I went to Stanford specifically for its joint-degree program, which not only let me study environmental science but also to specialize in clean energy. I think dual degrees can be incredibly valuable. They let you explore a field from a wider variety of perspectives; they often introduce you to subjects, scholarship, and scholarly methods that you wouldn’t otherwise see in law school; and they give you access to interdisciplinary work across a university, which I find to be so important, both socially and intellectually. The one downside, as I see it, is that part of the value of the law school experience is its all-encompassing nature. You’re being trained to think as a lawyer in law school, and part of the way you achieve that is by really immersing yourself in the law. It can be difficult to pull yourself out of that, or to switch between different kinds of classes, if you’re in a joint-degree program. So I think these programs can be really wonderful, but you want to give some thought as to how you structure your coursework.
You have some forthcoming articles—mind giving us a sneak peek into what you've been researching?
I’m currently editing a piece related to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission’s authority to permit interstate natural gas pipelines under the Natural Gas Act (it will be coming out with the Harvard Environmental Law Review in the spring). This issue has been in the news a lot recently, as FERC’s permitting of natural gas pipelines has gotten increasingly contentious, both for the potential climate change impacts of the development of natural gas infrastructure and for environmental justice concerns. My paper traces the historical origins of this authority and finds that FERC used to approach these permitting decisions very differently: it engaged in highly political and complex proceedings in which it attempted to weigh a variety of interests at stake, including the impact of pipeline development on alternative forms of energy and the social and political dimensions of pipeline permitting.
Over the last twenty years, however, FERC’s permitting process has become incredibly routinized: FERC tends to approach each pipeline approval in the same way, looking for evidence that there is market “need” for the pipeline in the form of a particular contract, and zeroing out other countervailing interests. I try to tease out what might be the cause of this shift; whether FERC’s current approach is consistent with its statutory delegation under the Natural Gas Act; and why, if FERC’s current approach is not consistent with the statute, it would be difficult to force FERC to change its ways. At bottom, the paper emphasizes the importance of recognizing that FERC’s permitting decisions are political ones—intentionally so, as Congress directed FERC in the Natural Gas Act to resolve highly political questions around the development of natural gas—and those political forces are crucial to the form and application of the legal doctrine in this space.
You clerked on the Second Circuit, something many law students hope to do. How did you like the experience? How did it impact your professional development?
I loved my clerkship experience. I clerked for Judge Guido Calabresi on the Second Circuit, and he has a reputation of producing a lot of clerks who go into legal academia, so I thought it would be a good fit for my interests. I had also heard that Guido is a really wonderful person, and that was important to me. Not only is Guido brilliant, but he is kind; he cares a lot about his clerks, and you feel like you’re joining a family when you clerk for him. I learned so much from him, from how to think about the law and the role of a judge to how to approach legal issues and legal writing. My clerkship was important to me professionally because it gave me insight into how the law actually works in practice; this fed straight into my experience as a litigator with the NRDC. Guido is also very much an academic, so I believe my experience with him helped me hone my scholarly skills. And, maybe most importantly, working with Guido introduced me to my co-clerks and clerk family, many of whom are also academics. I have found them to be an invaluable resource as I navigate being a law professor myself.
What course are you most looking forward to teaching?
I’m really enjoying my Energy Law class this fall—I have such a great group of students! Next semester, I’ll be teaching a Climate Change Law class, which will let me blend some of my energy law and environmental law interests, and I’ll also be teaching a Public Utility Regulation seminar. I think that seminar will let me tap into my legal-history-nerd side, which will be fun. So…I’m looking forward to all of them!
Lighting Round!
Have you been to any good restaurants in Charlottesville, or have you done any good hikes?
Good restaurants: My husband and I celebrated our one-year anniversary at C&O, which was lovely. Good hikes: The hike to Sugar Hollow is awesome! Shoutout to Professor Josh Bowers, who gave us the hiking trail.
Do you have any pets?
No, but I am desperate to get a dog. If anyone knows of a goldendoodle who needs a home, let me know!
What was your favorite law school class?
Either a Democracy & the Constitution seminar with Larry Kramer, or Michelle Anderson’s Property class.
How do you like your coffee?
Frequently and with lots of milk.
What have you been watching or reading?
Reading: a short fiction collection of female writers from the nineteenth century, which I picked up from a used bookstore in Charlottesville. Watching: just finished the second season of Only Murders in the Building and looking for a new show.
What is your secret talent?
It’s not a “talent” because I’m not good at it, but I am the percussionist in a wizard rock band with two of my best friends from high school.
Favorite type of weather?
Autumn—chilly, leaves turning brilliant colors, cool and crisp air.
First job you ever had?
Lifeguard.
What are you looking forward to the most, living here in Charlottesville?
The people and the nature.
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Professor Gocke
agocke@law.virginia.edu
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Interviewed by Dana Lake ‘23
editor@lawweekly.org